Narrator:
Welcome to the supply chain visibility stories, the podcast for supply chain managers, brought to you by ACSIS, the 100% supply chain visibility cloud solution provider Supply Chain Visibility Stories is hosted by Bill Wohl, a technology industry veteran and enterprise software professional. 

Bill Wohl:
Thanks everyone, for joining us for this next in a series of discussions exploring the intersection of technology and business. We're talking supply chain. Our podcasts are designed to be brief and focused and we're hoping this format inspires you, our audience, to think about how technology impacts your organization and to engage with us. I'll have information about how to engage with this series and today's guests as we end our discussion. My name is Bill Wohl and I'm honored to be the host of this series brought to you by ACSIS. I'm always fascinated by the business challenges faced by companies and how those challenges can be addressed by technology. So with a focus on supply chain, our series topics have ranged from the macro trends, the challenges facing global supply chains today to how systems are integrated and how so-called edge devices are communicating more and more data all around a renewed focus on global supply chains. And today, we're going to continue our discussion and talk again about smart packaging because that's at the forefront of a lot of discussions on supply chain modernization. To discuss this, we've got two guests on the program today. Please welcome a Eef de Ferrante, managing director of AIPA, the Active and Intelligent Packaging Industry Association, and our regular guest, John DIPalo, chief strategy officer at ACSIS. Eef and John, welcome to the program.

Eef de Ferrante:
Hi guys, most happy to be here.

John DiPalo:
Bill, thanks again for having me back on.

Bill Wohl:
John, why don't we start with you? So, the topic of smart packaging has generated a lot of interest by regular listeners in our podcast series. What's really driving the interest on smart packaging today?

John DiPalo:
Well, I think it comes from a couple of different dimensions, Bill. You know, we have the rise of industrial IoT, you know that can be embedded in packaging. You know, we have the drive towards people wanting to know where their products are at any particular point in time. So, the ability for the packaging to become intelligent and carry context around the content of the packaging, you know, becomes very important, you know, and and not to be overlooked is the role of sustainability you know, in smart packaging and and the ability for, you know, reuse, the ability for getting optimal, you know, processing out of your transportation, out of your packaging, being able to get that packaging back and reuse it. So there's a lot of dimensions and everything is coming together at the right point in time as well as a shift in mindset around operational excellence and again this drive towards making sure that we're taking care of the planet from a sustainability perspective.

Bill Wohl:
That's a great way to kick it off, John. Eef, again welcome to the program. It's great to know about IPA, a truly global association. I had a chance to take a look at your website and the list of companies involved as members. That's quite a list and very global. So tell us, tell our audience more importantly, a little about your organization, its purpose, and the membership.

Eef de Ferrante:
Yeah, thank you. We started AIPA about 11, 12 years ago when smart packaging was on the agenda already at several companies, but it was not an organized subject yet.

Bill Wohl:
Mhm.

Eef de Ferrante:
Everybody was talking about smart packaging, but there was not a meeting place. It was not structured. There were several ideas And we thought at that time well there there need to be a platform where everybody can come together. So that's why we started in 2012 something like that we started this association. We have a very very simple mission is we promote the use and implementation of active and intelligent packaging and we connect brands with technology providers in this in this area. So that's what we do, and  I managed to be managing director from the beginning. So we are very global, all the big and smaller companies have joined us, and we are actually the only global platform in this industry at the moment.

Bill Wohl:
So as we think about managing supply chains globally no doubt standards and interoperability on the minds of people who are working at opposite ends of the supply chain on in all four corners of the globe. I'm thinking about topics like NFC and RFID as technology standards become more and more critical. Is that a focus? A lot of the inquiries of end-user companies when they approach the association?

Eef de Ferrante:
Well, is that a focus is not really the good question. This is focus number one, it's all about supply chain and we believe well the future of smart packaging is completely depending on the rebuilding of the supply chain.  Maybe we can get back later to that in this discussion but the supply chain at this moment is very siloed  from brands to conser there are many vertical worlds, transport and logistics, retail, storage, , etc. So, and all actually to be honest, those silos are not really connected. They work together, but they're not really connected. And this is a thing which definitely has to change. And the only way to do it to do that is, by all the new technologies coming up.

Bill Wohl:
So, let's , let's press on that a little bit because our friends at ACSIS spend a lot of time helping customers map out how to take their existing supply chains and make them better. But I've heard you use this term rebuild a lot. What do you mean about what do you mean by rebuilding supply chains?

Eef de Ferrante:
Well, in every silo of a supply chain, it's all about data, right? I mean, you send a product to storage or to transport and there they scan the product. They know where it has to go. go to, where it comes from, where to store it, where to put it, how long it's there. But this data is staying within that small part of the supply chain and then it goes to the next step in the supply chain, let's say transport, and there the whole new world start all over again. The transport company knows where it comes from, where it has to go to, what the condition is, from, who it is, etc. But that data also stays with them.

Bill Wohl:
Mhm.

Eef de Ferrante:
And then it goes to retail and then a complete new world starts all over again. They have their own codes, their own cash systems, their own  information about who's buying it. But that data stays with them. So the future of smart packaging is completely depending on this. This data has to be shared completely along the supply chain so that everybody can as a sort of box with data enter that box takes what he needs to know and in that way I mean if you talk about sustainability if you want to make supply chain more sustainable you have to share this data otherwise it will never become really sustainable.

Bill Wohl:
So when you talk about rebuilding the supply chain it sounds like what you really are saying is this effort at breaking down silos and making sure data is visible to all players all along the supply chain from conception to completion is really where that focus is. Do I understand that correct?

Eef de Ferrante:
Yes, that's correct.

Bill Wohl:
And why do you think it's why do you think it's so hard to break down those silos?

Eef de Ferrante:
Oh, because you have to deal with people and people are very protective. This is me. Don't touch it. This is what I do. So, you have to change the mindset of people, but I truly believe it's not that difficult. But what you need to do is form let's say a consortion of big players, big and small players. Let's say big players and clever players. And the clever ones are most of the times not always, well, let me be a bit careful, but they're not always the big ones. And step away from an existing supply chain. Don't even think about what products are we moving or producing or sending back. Build a consortion and start completely from zero again. So, if you produce a product, what data do you generate and who can use that data? If the product is ready where do you ship it to and what data is generated by that? And that has to fit into one box this data and as soon as you have redesigned that then you can look at a supply chain to test it on. So this is for me at AIPA absolutely crucial that you step away from the existing way of thinking in a supply chain.

Bill Wohl:
That's helpful to understand. John often talks about customers understanding the end goal they want to reach and working back from that and looking at the of technology for our audience. , your association is less focused on the actual packaging, the types of materials used, the shapes and size of containers. You're really talking about the technology which sits on top. Is most of the focus in smart tag? I know that when we talk about technology that can sense temperature and extend shelf life. And when you think about the inquiries from customers, is a lot of it on active tagging?

Eef de Ferrante:
Yeah, you know, it's  I mean the technology help is helping us a lot the last it's going very fast the last five years. So yes, it's about item-level tagging and what the tag is you know as we are an association, we don't really care about what the technology will be. There are several technologies like sensors and RFID and NFC, but also invisible codes or watermarks or holograms or indeed as you said, we we don't look at if if it's packed in in carton or plastic or or or can or glass. But what technology can you add to the pack to make it intelligent and use this technology in every part of the supply chain? What I  and this maybe a bit weird, what I also like to do is step a little bit away from the application of the tag.

Bill Wohl:
Mhm.

Eef de Ferrante:
I mean, if the application is meant to measure the condition of the product or the location or the background of the product, we don't care so much because it's generating data. It's more you have to step away from a certain application of a sensor of attack. That's fine. We can find any sensor or tag which will work. Let's first rethink how to manage the data in that supply chain and if there is if companies or parts of the supply chain will still be protective saying, “no, no, no” this is me and nobody nobody can touch that we have to kick them out because this is not the future of the supply chain the future of the supply chain is open data and what the data does that's the second question.




Bill Wohl:
Got it, I I know we could talk about this topic for hours today, but our podcast will end shortly. Can you give us a quick sense of a customer project you were involved in that really highlights the importance?

Eef de Ferrante:
Yeah, sure. We are currently involved in two user projects.  I'm not sure if you can mention names but let's do it.  One is with Boston Scientific - this medical device company, very big one. It's very interesting project. What they do currently is as soon as they send medical devices to a hospital this these are devices which are used in an operation. So at Boston, they don't know when that product is used because the doctor has an operation the next day and he asks the the assistant okay I need this and this and that and they take it from the storage room and that's done. What Boston is doing at this moment they send every Now and then a guy or or a lady to that hospital with a notepad and a pen, a piece of paper to check the current status of the products in in the cupboard in the hospital. That's insane. That's insane. So now we are working on a system which detects by RFID which detects if the package of that medical device is opened is sends immediately a signal back to the Boston Scientific who knows, oh, they're using one, we have to replenish that.

Bill Wohl:
Got it. That this makes sense and I think that these test cases or these understanding these case studies are great for the audience and perhaps in a future discussion we can talk about  a few more. It's really helpful to get this perspective particularly on a global basis.  Thank you, Eef. John - I just want to come back to you for a final question. You know, when we hear people talk about rethinking supply chains, I know a lot of our listeners feel sort of overwhelmed at all of the challenges, but more importantly, the opportunities in front of them. I presume you would say that the best role for associations is to be a source of information and guidance to bring people together. Is that the right way to think about this?

John DiPalo:
Yeah, there there's no question, you know, so you know, joining the associations and and having that as a resource to help guide you in your journey you know is certainly a key focus that you should be doing and and you have to allocate the resources to do it right so it's not just joining it's actually participating and and learning and and doing pilots and things like that. You know and then the other point you know which just quickly I want to talk about is you know to share data outside of your control also means that you have control of the data across your internal processes, right? We talked about this before, right? So, you need to really focus on breaking down your internal silos so that you can break down your external silos, right? So, as you think about this and as you think about reinventing the supply chain, which I 100% agree on, it really starts at home so that you can provide that information in the right context at the right level of fidelity to your external partner.



Bill Wohl:
And be the right participant, and as we've discussed on many of our podcasts, it really is about surrounding yourself with experts who have access to the right players, the right information and best practices. That's the role of ACSIS. That's the role of AIPA. Thanks, Eef for joining our program today. Managing director of AIPA.  You can learn more about AIPA at aipia.info.com.  I'd like to thank everyone at ACSIS for making this podcast series possible. We welcome your comments and questions about the discussions on these podcasts. You can engage with us at the official ACSIS Twitter and LinkedIn account. So, be a part of that discussion. I'm your host, Bill Wohl. And for everyone at ACSIS, thanks to Eef, thanks to John. Thanks for joining the program today. We look forward to our next podcast. Talk soon.

Eef de Ferrante:
All right. Thank you very much.

Narrator:
Thank you for listening to Supply Chain Visibility Stories brought to you by ACSIS, the 100% supply chain visibility cloud solution provider. Visit us on the web at acsisinc.com. That's acsisinc.com. Or join the dialogue on social media. Look for ACSIS, Inc. on LinkedIn and Twitter. Join us next time for supply chain visibility stories brought to you by ACSIS.